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The electrification theme is a rare thing, as it dishes up opportunities for value and growth investors alike. Some are buying coal and others are buying renewables, yet the underlying reasons aren’t as different as you might think.

People are using more electricity than ever before and growth in generative AI is just adding to the problem – or opportunity, depending on how you view the world.

To unpack this theme and how they apply it to the AnBro portfolios, Craig Antonie of AnBro joined us for this discussion.

AnBro Capital Investments is an authorised Financial Services Provider FSP number 48371.

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Full transcript:

The Finance Ghost: Welcome to episode 174 of Magic Markets. And it’s going to be a goodie because we’ve got Craig Antonie on this one from Anbro. And Craig, it’s been a little while, actually. I think the last couple of Anbro shows had Justin on them. And we love Justin. We always learn a lot from him. But of course, it’s lovely to have you on here as well. And of course, Mo, all the way from Canada as always. And we are looking forward to chatting through a pretty important global theme on this show. But let me say hello to Mo first. Welcome, Mo. Thanks for, as always, doing this with me. I think we’re gonna have some fun.

Mohammed Nalla: Ghost, always a pleasure doing this with you. And, I mean, I must really say, Craig, it’s really great having you back on the show. Yes, we love Justy, we love the entire team at Anbro, quite frankly. But Craig, I really love your perspective. I always share the story and I’m going to share it now again. Craig, when I just started out in the markets, Craig was the first person who actually showed me how an order book worked. You know, it was at one of the banks in South Africa. And I remember he was putting in this, this buy order, bid offer spread, he was explaining that to me, it was like a single share to call the guy on the other side, say, hey, look, I’m just showing some newbie how the markets actually work. So, you know, don’t execute on this trade, Craig. Some great long-term memories there. And that’s why it’s always great to have you back on the show talking about what’s relevant in the markets right now. Very interesting theme. I’m going to say hello to you and you’re going to tell us what we’re talking about today. Craig, welcome back.

Craig Antonie: Thanks, Mo. Thanks, Ghost, and hello to all the listeners. I hope everyone’s doing well. Yes, I mean, this is quite an interesting theme that we, that we’re looking at, and at AnBro, we’ve done quite a lot of work on this for the last several months or so, and we find it’s an interesting opportunity which transcends all the portfolios that we manage, you know, so if one looks at something like the more conservative, dividend focused, income orientated portfolio in Ancomp all the way through to unicorn, which is obviously the flagship growth portfolio, we find there’s opportunities to invest across this theme in many, many ways.

And what is this theme that you guys, that we’re talking about? Well, what is it that you’re interested in hearing about today, guys? Well, it’s the theme around electrification, and electrification, quite simply, is just the increasing role of electricity in the world today and in the various sectors in the world today. Now, people may not know this, but, you know, electricity demand has been flat for roughly two decades in countries like the US and in most first world countries, obviously been growing exponentially in countries like China and India. But now, you know, as a result of various forms of legislation and technological advancements, we’re expecting a multi year, multi decade growth increase, or spurt, if you like, in electricity and electricity consumption. And that provides us with a host of opportunities to look at, which I think would be interesting to talk a bit about.

“Electricity demand has been flat for roughly two decades in countries like the US and in most first world countries, obviously been growing exponentially in countries like China and India”

The Finance Ghost: A big part of investing, and certainly when you take more of a thematic view, is to try and not swim upstream. Right? So you don’t want to pay too much for companies that are in obvious growth areas because then you can get hurt anyway. But at the same time, the value style of investing sometimes does jump into companies that are actually just too hard. Yes, they might be trading at very low valuations, but they’re not necessarily in areas of growth or areas where it’s easier to do well. And there are a million examples of these, and some of them are very much in the headlines. So obviously artificial intelligence is one. And I’ve no doubt we’ll talk about AI and the impact that has on energy.

It’s almost too obvious, that stuff. I think what’s quite nice when the theme is a bit broader and it’s something like electrification is it actually forces you to think a bit more deeply and say, okay, how do I participate in this? I mean, we covered a company on Magic Markets Premium a little while ago, called NextEra Energy. And what’s cool with NextEra Energy is it’s basically the biggest power utility in Florida and electrification is a major theme there because on one hand you’ve got population growth in Florida, but on top of that, everyone is using more electricity in that region, especially because electric cars are quite popular there, but for other reasons as well, like data centers and all the stuff I’m sure we’ll talk about, and that’s good for NextEra Energy, that means there’s good demand for its products. And suddenly what on paper is quite a boring utility is actually a pretty cool investment that I’m quite happy to be holding right now.

Craig Antonie: And I think, you know, you touched a bit on it, Ghost, and I mean, let’s, let’s chat a bit about it, right? So you had electricity demand conventionally, you know, as you can imagine, just comes from, you know, the normal man in the street or the factory out there that’s producing a widget, or us that, you know, that sit at home and use electricity to power our households.

Over the last few, few years or decade or so, if you like, you’ve had the advent of electric vehicles, which has added a growth element to electricity consumption. I mean, you may not see it too much in SA at the moment, I’m sure it will come, but, you know, living in the UK, you see things like electric charging stations everywhere. You know, people have been plugged into their homes. There’s almost the equivalent of big electric parking lots, you know, that people go to park their Teslas or any other electric car they may have to charge, and that’s creating a vertical and a business and an income stream, people that own those assets. Also, for those of you that like to invest in things like crypto, well, I mean, bitcoin mining as an example, has been a huge consumer of electricity for several years now. Over and above this, as technology has evolved, you have a lot of grids out there in the world which are very old and need upgrading and maintenance.

And new modern grids require enormous amounts of capex to bring them back up to modern technology and modern standards. There’s obviously the storage angle and you also touched on something like AI, which has become another very, very big leg to the electricity consumption angle. Now, all of these provide investment opportunities for investors out there. You can play them from various angles. I mean, something we can touch on a bit, which is what you alluded to Ghost was data centers. That’s something we can talk a little bit about if you like. But looking at data centers and how that sort of trends into something like AI, those are the two things which sort of melt into each other, and AI obviously being the trend de jour. You know, what happens if you can imagine, is you have a programmer. He takes a whole lot of data and he puts this into his model to train his AI model. Now, essentially how that works is these models then run the data through the program thousands and thousands and thousands of times. Now, on top of this, more data is coming constantly into the model and it’s learning and refining, et cetera. And all of this just consumes energy to a point where it actually becomes quite eye watering. Now, that looks at us from a data center perspective. And you say, well, historically, data centers really house servers which help companies store data and help provide access to the cloud. Now suddenly you have mountains more data which has been analyzed and requires far more storage and far more electricity to, to run and maintain a data center. So the data center model is one that’s evolving considerably, and it’s something that we watch quite closely and obviously look at ways of sort of capitalizing on it and profiting on it for shareholders and for customers.

Mohammed Nalla: Yeah, Craig, you’ve touched on a couple of very important points. And I mean, Ghost alluded to the show where we had covered NextEra. We also covered a Canadian utility called Emera, and they also predominantly operate not just in Canada, but also in Florida in the United States. And what is very interesting for us was some of the regional differences that come through. Now, where, where I want to go with this, Craig, is you’ve touched on these mega themes, electrification, data centers, but they’re also significant regional differences. So, for example, there’s a stock I’ve looked at in the past which was called Alfen, and that is a European listed company that specifically focuses not on the generation side of things, but on the grid side of things. And interestingly enough, I mean, it’s actually done terribly in contrast to what you’ve seen at other parts of this value chain.

At the same time, this week in our premium show, we’re covering Amazon. We’re doing another deep dive there. And, you know, those themes around data centers around the cloud. And the fact that Amazon also produces a lot of its own renewable energy shows you that there are just so many ways you can try and get exposure to this mega theme of electrification that you’ve touched on. So what is, in your view, the most optimal way, or at least maybe the most optimal part of this value chain to, to start looking at opportunities? I know you’ve indicated the two very different portfolios. You’ve got, you’ve got Unicorn, which is the more growth orientated stuff, and then you’ve got Dynamic Compound, which is the more income orientated stuff. Maybe if you could give us a view of the stuff that you would be putting in the growth portfolio and how you’d play that part of the value chain for growth, and then similarly, the more stable, more income generative part of the portfolio that you’d be looking at for dynamic compound.

Craig Antonie: Well, if we look at something like Unicorn, which is obviously the growth space, I mean, I’m gonna throw a couple of stats at you guys. You might find this interesting. But if you’re looking at something like OpenAI, you know, when OpenAI was formed and it started trading, you know, they used 25,000 Nvidia A100 GPU chips. Now, to put that into context, I mean, it just sounds like a lot of numbers, but each of those chips costs $10,000. 25,000, $250 million worth of chips is what was used to just to train OpenAI.

“25,000, $250 million worth of chips is what was used to just to train OpenAI.”

OpenAI then consumed about 50 gigawatts of power when it did this training over a course of about 100 days. Now, at more or less current cost of electricity in the states, that would equate to about $100 million worth of electricity that was used or consumed. And now when one looks at the evolution of AI and OpenAI, it’s estimated that just for GPT-3 you know, the cost of maintaining the infrastructure and maintaining GPT-3 is about $700,000 a day. So, you know, if one looks at just some eye watering numbers like this, one can imagine that there’s various ways to do it. So from a Unicorn perspective, obviously the first beneficiaries of AI would be something like Nvidia. You know, just throwing these numbers around in terms of how much money’s been spent on chips, that gives you a sense of where a lot of the interest has gone and why stocks like Nvidia have done so well. But what we’ve said, obviously, we’ve owned Nvidia, thankfully, and still do. But what one can do is look way down into the value chain and say, well, there’s so much power being generated there’s so many bits of data being crunched on a daily basis. What is another way to consider the opportunity? And one stock which we started buying in the portfolios and have started layering in over the last few months is probably going to be very obscure. I mean, when we brought it into the portfolio, it wasn’t on any of the unit trust platforms, so it had to be created specifically for us to add it. And, you know, there is a company called Fluence Energy now, Fluence Energy, interestingly enough, this is a company that focuses on grid scale energy storage. So, you know, it’s big scale battery storage, if you like. You know, they have storage technologies and services. They also have software which runs all this stuff. And they were born out of necessity, really.

I mean, you had Siemens, which was a company which looked at obviously a big global engineering business and industrial business, and they had part of the sort of energy business which was looking at things like battery storage. And then you had a utility in the US called AES which were saying, well, you know, we need backup storage and batteries and for our utilities, and at a grand scale, if you like, you know, at a grid scale, on a grid scale level. So the two companies came together, put the utilities and technology together, and created this business called Fluence. And, you know, Fluence is something that, you know, for us is extremely exciting and interesting, and the upside potential is enormous, you know, so you have really, what is a customer and a supplier which have really come together to create a business.

The business has been quite volatile over the last few quarters or so. It’s only recently listed in 2021. And if one compares this to a lot of the other green energy or solar type companies out there, like first solar, which I know is one we’ve spoken about once upon a time as well, the volatility has been pretty enormous, but what we found now is that they’re starting to almost have found a level, found a bottom, and the interest is coming back as people start to understand just how big this electrification theme is and how it really spreads into the economy in multiple layers. So Fluence Energy is a company that’s been winning significant orders. It’s been growing rapidly. The company is profitable, and it’s also one that has a lot of cash on the balance sheet as well. So it ticks all those boxes from business coming off a very low base also. I mean, it’s got a very small market cap, relatively speaking. You know, it’s something which has an enormous market to grow into. And this really is cherry picking if you like, for the Unicorn portfolio. And it fits our mandate really, really well. So in Fluence energy is one people can have a look at if they’re interested in learning a bit more. And that’s on the unicorn side, pivoting a little bit now just to the Ancomp side. Obviously, there’s ways to look at this as well and go alluded to next year energy, which is in the utility space.

But you know, one can even delve into that utility space and go even deeper. You know, utilities in the states and across Europe are very fragmented. You know, those markets, it’s not like SA, for example, where you have Eskom, and that’s really it. You know, if you look at something like the utility sector ETF listed by Vanguard, you know, there are over 68 different counters that are in just that ETF varying utilities. And what we could do now is we can look at the utilities that focus on the states in the US, if you like, where data centers are, you know, where they’ve been developed, where they’ve been maintained, where the planning rights are. And this creates essentially demand for utilities in that space. It creates significant interest not only from utility companies and investors, but also from government, you know, which are looking to attract these sort of investments into, into their states. So you know, there’s that opportunity as well from a utility space where you can say, well, you know, let’s focus on those areas where data centers are being built so one doesn’t have to just invest in the data center, but the actual utility that’s supplying power to that data center.

The Finance Ghost: And I’ll give you a great stat from the Amazon show that we’re recording, basically straight after this, which is that Bloomberg has named Amazon the largest corporate purchaser of renewable energy for the fourth consecutive year. So wait for it, over 500 wind and solar projects globally, which Amazon say would be enough to power 7.2 million us homes. And this is something that is particularly interesting at the moment, is there’s all this focus on renewable energy and green and everything else, and that’s great. But actually renewable energy hasn’t made much of a dent in terms of how people consume energy worldwide because of the electrification trend, because of stuff like AI.

Yes, a lot of the new projects might be renewable, but because people are using more electricity than before, net net, we still end up needing all these fossil fuels and all these other ways. And, and obviously people who are bulls on things like uranium and nuclear will very much point out these sort of statistics. But there is a lot of truth in it at the moment. Which is that so much of the renewable energy investment is because of stuff like AI. This theme is quite big and people don’t necessarily understand all the implications of it.

“Bloomberg has named Amazon the largest corporate purchaser of renewable energy for the fourth consecutive year.”

Craig Antonie: That’s enormous. I mean, I’ll throw another stat. I mean, today it’s estimated that OpenAI’s Sora, which is pretty much the newest version of it, uses 720,000 thousand Nvidia H 100 GPU’s. Now that is Nvidia’s premium sort of chip, if you like, that is worth just the GPU’s is worth $22 billion. So it’s enormous. I mean, the investment being put into just something like AI is enormous. And obviously companies around the world are looking to generate a return out of this investment as well. And obviously, as with anything that, that comes along, it creates an old ecosystem and infrastructure around it that needs to be supported. Now, I mean, I mentioned a bit earlier that, you know, when open AI was training, they used 50 gigawatts worth of energy. Now, that’s just a number that might mean nothing really to, you know, to people like you and I if you just hear it. But if you go to Eskom’s website, I mean, they’ll tell you that they reckon that 1 mw can power 650 average homes. So, you know, 1 GW is equal to 1000 mw, you know, which is 650,000 homes. And the 50 gigawatts that it was used just to train open AI could really power 32 and a half million homes. So to put that into context, you know, just another stat to your Amazon stat, there goes. So, you know, the, the implications, I think, are considerable. Yes, as you alluded to, this clean energy which people are looking to focus on now. So, yes, there’s still this pivot away from dirty energy, if you like, or unsustainable energy like coal and fossil fuels. Clean energy like natural gas and uranium is a play that, you know, we’ve also participated quite nicely in, particularly in unicorn, as one of our out the box thinking ideas. We’ve had a uranium position there for. For quite some time. But then obviously you get the clean and green, you know, which is the sort of cherry on top, if you like. And that’s where something like solar, you know, comes into play. And solar is in itself becoming a massive, massive industry. And it’s when I would say the vast majority of investment dollars globally are being allocated. You know, it’s wind and solar. But the biggest problem you have is in general, in wind in particular, is that sometimes the wind just doesn’t blow.

“And the 50 gigawatts that it was used just to train Open AI could really power 32 and a half million homes”

And we’ve had that in the UK where, you know, there was a large portion of the UK grid which was reliant on wind power and wind energy. And sometimes the wind doesn’t blow. There’s just nothing you can do about that. And that’s where you need battery storage, you need the solar opportunities as well to provide the backup as well. It’s a vast, vast opportunity and we could delve into this for hours.

Mohammed Nalla: Craig, I want to jump in there because again, it’s just so interesting. And as a bull on this electrification theme, I find it interesting because there’s so many touch points. It’s not just electric vehicles, it’s not just AI, but maybe to push back a little bit. I mean, we’ve got a lot of naysayers out there, people, you know, remember the dotcom boom and bust and they’re calling this AI the boom and bust. We’re also very highly sensitive to the price that you pay for some of these assets because yes, there are these themes, but sometimes the price on some of these assets gets pushed way beyond the realm of the kind of natural, total, addressable market that comes through. So maybe just some insights in terms of where are we in the different cycles with regards to some of those underlying themes.

You know, are we, for example, Ghost and I have spoken about EV’s and how, you know, you had this massive EV push and then you just look at what’s happened to Tesla over the course of the last year and you can actually see that some of that optimism comes out. And when that happens, it’s very painful. Now, arguably with some of those eye watering numbers that you’ve, you’ve given us around the AI, the GPU investment, and just for context, you know, going to that number, 50 gigawatts, I think that’s Eskom’s total production capacity at a steady state right now, there and thereabouts. So it’s like you’re producing all of South Africa’s energy and that’s all going into AI. Where are we on the EV theme? Where are we on the AI theme? And then specifically, there’s a lot of investment that’s going into grid hardening, there’s a lot of investment that’s going into storage, as you’ve indicated. So maybe on that theme, what does the infrastructure backlog from a utilities and a grid perspective look like and where are we in that cycle? Those three specific underlying themes, if you could share your view, please.

Craig Antonie: Well, I think if one looks at just something like the grid cycle and the hardening cycle, if one looks at, you know, Europe in particular, there’s a dearth of equipment out there. I mean, one can literally you battling to find it, you know, so even in countries like Germany, France, the UK, where you have these massive climate change targets where they’re trying to get as close to net zero as soon as possible and perhaps by 2050 and things like that, the amount of demand for components to manufacture the grids, manage the grids, maintain grids just in the grid space, for example, it’s very, very difficult to actually come by. So that in itself obviously creates an opportunity.

Part of the whole option, if you like, with regards to maintenance, would be looking at things like these components manufacturers and are they able to supply into this demand. Now, AI is one thing, but before AI, there was obviously this need to reduce carbon emissions from a global perspective. And that kicked off massive amounts of government spending in these initiatives, not just in the states, via several acts, whether it’s the IRA or Chips act, even the Clean Energy act, all these sort of bills and that came through, they’ve been replicated to a degree, not necessarily in the same quantum, but to a very similar degree in Europe as well. So there’s this overarching need to combat climate change and to shift the global grid, if you like, to a grid which is sustainable and uses clean and reliable energy. So this is very much a mega theme. And AI is something which has come on top of it and almost just exacerbated the issue a little bit. And that does cause problems, pockets of valuation, to really get out of kilter with the reality. And as you rightly said, one’s got to be very careful when you buy into some of these assets. What we saw last year, which I think you might find interesting, is if you had to look at, and I’m just going to bring it up here while we’re speaking, but there’s an ETF in the US called the iShares clean energy ETF. And this ETF really looks at investing in, as the name suggests, clean energy stocks. And it really compasses a whole host of businesses, from utilities to solar companies, etcetera. This ETF was pretty much left for dead last year. Last year it had a horrible year when markets were recovering off their 2022 bear market lows. This ETF still fell by, I think was 30 odd percent last year.

I think that was an example of where you saw clean energy demand and excitement around clean energy in a couple of years prior, blowing up considerably, that deflated that market, just deflated considerably all the way right down to levels where there were shares and companies in that space were pretty much thrown out and tossed away. Now, Fluence Energy, for example, alluded, which is one we’ve spoken about, is, is a classic example of that. I mean, if one looks at the, you know, the 52 week high and low of a business like Fluence, I mean, you know, you see a, it’s almost like a grand canyon, you know, of where this price has been. It’s been really as low as $13 and as high as $31 over the last year. So obviously what you pay is, is equally as important and as the, as the idea that you have, you know, this is where, you know, that is, I think, you know, as, as a fund manager if you like, particularly in a high growth portfolio like unicorn, we ought to be quite astute and quite aware of that.

So, you know, we weren’t buying these clean energy type stocks last year, but we started buying them early this year. So hopefully, and it’s, I mean, it’s looking pretty good so far. You know, we’ve managed to get in at pretty attractive prices. Also, the sentimental sector has been very, very poor. You know, people sort of almost pivoted away from clean energy. It was a has been theme and, you know, started focusing on AI and everything else and that provided a gap, if you like to look at it. So I mean, yes, the price of what you pay is vital, as you say, mo, and one’s got to be careful, I think, in terms of where you go and when you go and how you position size accordingly. So also with regards to AI, I guess the one comment I’d make there is just that, you know, we’re very early in the whole AI adventure, if you like, and no one quite yet knows, you know, how far and wide and deep this is going to go. And I think there are various ways to play it. And certainly it’s not just something like Nvidia or super microcomputer or, you know, these chip stocks which have, you know, been multi baggers over the last twelve or 24 months. There’s very, very many other ways to play it. And some of the ways we look at it is also, you know, shares that operate in the more enabling space if you like. You know, it. Consulting companies like Accenture, you know, would be a company that helps a lot of businesses implement AI in their model. You know, they obviously have the skills and the expertise and, you know, they’re an AR winner in many respects, but aren’t considered that because they’re not a tech stock per se, you know, Accenture is a stock we’ve been, you know, adding to, particularly on weakness in the. In the last while. And, you know, I think that’s just, you know, it’s a long way of answering the question, but, you know, there’s various ways to play it. And to the point Ghost made earlier, you know, you got to also look a little bit beyond the obvious.

Mohammed Nalla: Craig, I’m not going to let you escape without giving us a quick comment on EV’s because I know Tesla is very close, and I say this tongue in cheek, very close to Ghost’s heart. Your view on EV’s, where we are in that particular cycle, because it certainly looks like, along with the rest of the ESG theme, that sector or that particular theme has fallen out of favor. Your view on that?

Craig Antonie: Well, I think there’s various ways to look at EV’s again, and something like Tesla is obviously a unique business on its own. People will look at something like Tesla and say it’s grossly overvalued, particularly if you compare it to other car manufacturers out there, whether it be something like Mercedes Benz or BMW or Toyota, they’re all car manufacturers. And how can Tesla be valued at such a considerable premium to other businesses like that? I think Tesla is a bit of a binary type of business. I don’t want to pick on Tesla, but you either love it or hate it. You either love Elon or you hate Elon. But the other thing about it is it almost in one business, if you like, encompasses almost everything we’ve spoken about today. You’ve got EV’s on the one hand, you’ve got SolarCity, which is the solar panel business in there, got battery storage, which is there this AI and GROK, you know, which they’ve now created as well for Twitter and X, or X now, as they call it. So, you know, it’s almost like a basket in inverted commas case of businesses where, you know, you have everything we’ve spoken about, really just under one, under one roof. And I think that’s probably why people often grapple to, you know, to get the right sort of valuation multiple for it, because it’s not just a car maker and it’s not just a solar, a solar city type business. It’s almost like a mixture of them all with robotics and all of that inside. So it’s hard to understand it. And I think one’s got to almost take the view on that. If you’re a believer that the car business is something they want to create with EV’s that what Apple’s created with the iPhone? In my opinion, a commoditized sort of asset which generates data and obviously a profit for them, which is used to fund the whole host of other business ideas which are coming down the line. And it’s either going to be something like Amazon, which started selling books and retail, then became AWS and everything else, or it’s going to eventually be valued just like a car maker, which means there’s quite a lot of downside from it. So it really just depends on, I guess, your view at Anbro. Full disclosure, we’re on the more optimistic side. We think it’s more than just a carmaker, but we understand the, you know, the volatility in a business like this and how binary it is, you know, when it comes to a CEO that’s at the helm. So we’ve obviously positioned SaaS that accordingly. You know, we have enough in there to keep us interested and to keep it interesting, but we’re not betting the farm per se.

The Finance Ghost: Yeah, I won’t talk too much on Tesla as we bring this to a close, but I think last comment from me would be electrification is one of those rare themes where actually value investors and growth investors kind of agree in a way and then violently disagree. They both agree that electrification is a theme, but then value investors go off and buy fossil fuels for the logical reason that actually renewable energy investment can barely keep pace with incremental energy demand. So whether we like it or not, we still need old sources of energy. Growth investors obviously tend to go into the more tech side of things. It’s fun to hear you talk about stuff like Accenture as well, Craig. That’s something that I hold playing that AI theme and then that feeds down into the electrification theme. There’s a lot going on. There’s a lot going on in the world, and I think that’s what makes investing really fun. And the beauty of it, of course, is there is something for everyone. There’s something for the growth investors, there’s something for the value investors. And obviously your funds, I think, are really interesting. They resonate with specific types of investors. And that’s why it’s always so great to have you guys on Magic Markets to talk about them. I think we are probably out of time for this week, but maybe as a closing comment, just a minute on how people contact you guys and, you know, just the two funds quickly that we’ve spoken about on the show and just the one liner on each and why they might resonate with an investor.

Craig Antonie: Sure. Thanks for the opportunity again, guys. I’d say, well, you know, if anyone that’s interested, please go to, that’s the website. There are various click throughs there for the different portfolios that we run. We have three portfolios. You know, the one which is the most conservative, which we alluded to here, is the Anbro Dynamic Compounding portfolio that focuses on dividends, dividend growth, dividend investing really looks to. The more conservative person out there is looking to see dividends compound over time and how that really creates nav accretion, if you like. Then in the middle, we have the high quality portfolio, which is our Brands portfolio. That’s the world’s biggest brands. That’s also available on the JSE as an AMC. And that really, again, almost brings the other portfolio alongside the Ancomp portfolio, which is our unicorn, and it merges the two, if you like. And Unicorn is the high growth blue sky portfolio, where we really look at things from a different perspective, where the opportunities are large, you know, the total addressable markets are large, the runways are large, and, you know, these are companies that not many, you know, people may have necessarily heard of, like Fluence Energy, for example. One which is blue sky, one which is conservative, and then one which combines the two to create a more balanced, high quality of, you know, one can go to the website and have a peep there, and if there’s any questions or anything you’d like to know, please, you know, reach out and contact us. Happy to help.

Mohammed Nalla: Yeah, thanks so much, Craig. I mean, that’s unfortunately where we’ve got to leave it to our listeners. Please do reach out to the team at Anbro. We’ve had listeners come back to us, you know, after engaging with Anbro, and very happy to engage with you to unpack some of these discussion points with our listeners. So please go check them out on the website. The team, Craig and Justin, both very approachable, both good friends of the show and of myself and Ghost personally. Thanks again so much, Craig. We’re going to have to have you back on the show again to discuss some of these things in a lot more detail. As always, we just find that we scratch the surface for our listeners.

We hope you’ve enjoyed the show. And until next week, same time, same place. Thanks and cheers.

Craig Antonie: Thanks, guys.

The Finance Ghost: Ciao.

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