Magic Markets #202: The automotive sector race

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The Finance Ghost: Welcome to episode 202 of Magic Markets, and this week we are talking all about cars. But don’t worry, it’s not some kind of weird motoring experiences podcast, even though we both do like cars Moe. What’s nice about it is that the world of cars is changing, so there’s a lot to talk about. I’m a dyed in the wool petrolhead, but I’m not blind to what’s happening in the world of EVs and what it all means. What we’ll do on this show is we’re going to run through basically the results of some of the world’s biggest automotive manufacturers, the recent numbers coming out of them and some of the trends.

I would encourage our listeners to go and check out Investec’s The Current podcast, because there’s a great episode in that season all about electric vehicle adoption in South Africa. Obviously very topical here with government subsidies and the launch of the first electric minibus. Look, you can decide for yourself if that’s a good idea. I’m not convinced about silent taxis and what that means for road safety, Moe. Go and check out The Current podcast to go and learn all about that.  In some ways, go and get a different view on electric vehicle adoption. Some of us are more bearish, others more bullish, go get other views and decide for yourself.

On this show, we’ll give you a nice lens into international automotive results. Moe, let’s do it. Let’s start the engines, to use the world’s worst possible pun and cliche to start the show. Actually, these days, start your batteries!

 

Mohammed Nalla: Start your batteries, and then there’s no sound, Ghost! There’s no sound on an electric car.

 

The Finance Ghost: This is the entire problem, right? This is the whole problem I think.

 

Mohammed Nalla: Ghost, we’re both petrolheads. We like a nice, throaty V8. If you’re rich, a V12. Ghost, I know you like to drive very fancy cars. That’s not the case when you look at EVs and what’s been so interesting for me, and that’s why I want to actually tap into your knowledge of what’s happening on the ground in South Africa. It’s why you’ve got to go and have a listen to that Investec podcast, because what’s happening in South Africa is obviously going to try and track global trends. Historically, South Africa was on the EV back burner. When you have electricity challenges, it doesn’t make sense to be talking EVs, but that’s now gone away. So I’m very interested to see what’s happening there.

I mean, you mentioned government subsidies. That was a major, major catalyst for EV adoption up here in North America, in Canada, in the U.S. and now maybe some question marks around that. We’ve got a Trump administration coming through there, you know, saying that those EV subsidies may be done away with. And what does that actually mean for the rest of the industry? We’re gonna get into that.

But some other interesting themes that I’m going to touch on, Ghost, is up here in the US the focus has shifted a little bit away from just EV adoption into a number of other trends. And what are those trends? Well, first and foremost it’s unified infrastructure. You know, here there’s a lot of companies that are talking about piggybacking off Tesla’s superchargers. So that’s an interesting development. It’s showing you a maturation in the market just in terms of making adoption a lot easier and then just using the best infrastructure that’s actually out there.

There’s also been a number of other trends that have come through in terms of full self-drive. And again, maybe this will help with those electric minibuses down in South Africa, if we can get self-driven taxis maybe that makes the roads a little bit safer down in South Africa.

Ghost, I think there’s a lot to jump into. I’m going to let you start because you indicated how some of these international players have done. I’m going to let you start because if I have to start, I’m going to start with Tesla. And I know you don’t want me to do that. Ghost.

 

The Finance Ghost: Yeah, I was actually just thinking now as you talk about full self-driving taxis, they would have to train the full self-drive, right? And the only way to do that would be to train it based on how taxi drivers drive. But we don’t need that. We do not need that in the world of AI. Let’s just, just nip that in the bud, right?

Now, the other thing we don’t need in our portfolios this year has been European car manufacturers so I will kick off there. Thank you for handing over to me. Let me do the Europeans first.

Year to date, share price performance, these are all in euros, just because it’s easier: Volkswagen down 27%, not good. BMW even worse at 33%. I can’t even attribute it to how hideous the new M2 is. I know they’ve got bigger problems than that. Stellantis the worst really, at 43% down, and bear in mind Stellantis has been pretty rubbish historically, so that’s even worse, really. It’s not good.

So I’ll just do a quick run through, I suppose, of what’s driving this among the Europeans and then I’ll hand over to you to do some of the Americans. I’m sure you’ll start with Tesla.

If we look at Volkswagen, right at the end of October they released their results for the nine months to September and it doesn’t make great reading. If you have a look at the report right in the opening paragraphs, they are obviously setting the scene for some pretty drastic action that they need to take in the core Volkswagen business, which is a big deal for the German economy. The Germans are not used to reading about stuff like factories being closed and jobs being lost. These are not German problems. But the operating margin in Volkswagen itself, their core business, is just 2%, which is awful. I mean, that’s below poultry businesses. That’s not where you want to be.

If you look year on year at Volkswagen Group, sales revenue was up ever so slightly, thanks to financial services. But their automotive business revenue was actually down 1%. Vehicle sales in terms of volumes, down 4%. So obviously pricing increases made up a few hundred basis points, but it’s still really bad.

There were pockets of strength. What’s quite interesting is South America, which you’ll see come through just now in another name. Sales were up 16% in South America. It’s like they finally discovered German cars. I’m not sure why. China, however, down 12%, so the issues there continue with Chinese consumers. Western Europe was actually down 1%, but apparently Volkswagen had decent momentum into the third quarter. We’ll see if that plays out as we get to the end of the year.

When sales are down like this and under pressure, then operating profit is not going to go the right way in a manufacturing business. It was down 21%, with group operating margin at 5.4%. So that shows you how Volkswagen itself at 2% is really dragging them down. It also shows you how important something like the sport luxury division is that’s running at 14.6%. That’s the importance of investments in groups like Porsche or Lamborghini, for example.

Net cash flow down 23% year on year, so really no good news at Volkswagen. I’ve got to say, there’s nothing to hang your hat on there.

If we move on quickly to Stellantis, the polony as we like to call it, all of the brands that sort of don’t really belong together. But Stellantis is trying their best to bring them together by building platforms that all these brands then share. Unfortunately, what that does is it somewhat dilutes the brand value and the heritage.

South America was their only good news story. Much like at Volkswagen, which is why I said it’s a bit odd. In Q3, South America was up 14% and the rest was just a mess. North America down 36%, which is ridiculous. Stellantis cannot sell Jeeps. It’s just incredible. Europe down 17%, so they can’t sell Citrons and Peugeot and Alfas and Fiats in Europe. It’s not good. Alas, my beloved Maserati, my favorite car brand of all, down 60% in terms of unit sales. But the product range is just really silly at the moment. So it’s no real surprise. Stellantis has pretty much been making a mess of almost everything they’ve touched for a while. No good news there then.

Two more Europeans to touch on Moe before I hand back to you. And it’s the German duo.

BMW, purveyors of one or two rather odd looking cars these days and a couple of nice ones, I guess that’s always been the BMW brand, right? They are, if nothing else, quite polarising. What they are doing pretty well is electric vehicles. I’ve got to say, when I went to London a few months ago, I spent some time in my friend’s i3, that was quite fun. What they’ve done is they’ve started to put electric engines into cars that just look quite normal. You don’t have to go and buy funny looking cars anymore to get an electric engine. That is one of the better EV strategies, I think.

Total deliveries at BMW down 13%, but electric up 26.5%. A significant increase in electric as a percentage of total sales, now up to 19.1% of total deliveries, I mean that’s almost one in five cars. And yes, some of that is the sad performance across the rest of the group, but a lot of it is that the electric range is doing quite well.

However, margins – hideous for the third quarter, down from 9.8% to 2.3%. That’s even worse than the back of the new 2 Series! Over nine months, it’s down from 10.3% to 6.6%. You can actually see the momentum is really negative here. The third quarter is much worse than the nine months year to date and that does not bode well at all. Third quarter profit before tax was down 79.4%. It’s horrible. Over nine months down 33.9%. Not much in the way of good news there at all.

If you look deeper, their pain is pretty much across the board. BMW unit sales down 11.4%. Mini 25.2%, Rolls Royce down 16%. So even Rolls Royce feeling the pinch, particularly in China where luxury has been a real challenge. Group sales in China were down 29.8% in the third quarter and down 13.2% for the nine months. The Chinese consumer story is really hurting the luxury automotive brands. Of course all this electric success and investment comes at a price: for the nine months, free cash flow -EUR191 million versus +EUR5.8 billion in the comparable period. That is a massive swing.

I want to end off with Mercedes in terms of the Europeans and I’ll just quote them verbatim here: “the third quarter results do not meet our ambitions.” Oh yes, that is a very Mercedes way to put it. Revenue down 7%, EBIT down 48%, so you don’t need fancy Mercedes ambitions to believe that those numbers are garbage. They’ve had a 31% decline in their all-electric vehicle sales and their plug-in hybrids they are only up 10%. All electrified vehicles 8.4% of total sales, remember BMW was over 19%.

So just messy stuff coming out of Europe pretty much across the board there isn’t really any good news. That’s the reality. Maybe BMW’s electric sales as the only highlight I can really point to.

 

Mohammed Nalla: I’m so glad Ghost, that we broke this up into you covering the Europeans first and then me covering the US automotive story, because it has really been chalk and cheese to a large degree. Yes, there are some weaknesses in the US market now. We’ll get to that.

Let me maybe start off there. You mentioned year-to-date numbers and just how poor some of these European manufacturers have actually looked. I’m going to ask you that cheeky question I love asking you. In terms of year-to-date performance, I’ve looked at the US stocks. We’ve got to include Tesla, we’ve got to include Ford, GM, those are the ones I looked at. Let’s maybe just for fun, throw in BYD, that’s the Chinese EV manufacturer, because they are listed in the US – out of those four, who do you think has been the top performer for the year to date? Remember, Tesla’s rallied very strongly post a Trump win. So I’m just going to tease you with that.

 

The Finance Ghost: No, no, no, it’s not them. It’s not them. Is it not BYD?

 

Mohammed Nalla: So if your guess is BYD, that gets you third position on the podium. That’s not very good. Second position goes to Tesla.

Now remember, Tesla’s rallied very strongly. It rallied over 20% on Trump’s win in the US – that only gets it second position, which begs the question: who’s actually shot the lights out in the US on a year-to-date basis? And again, you can go and have a look at this on a 12-month basis as well, it doesn’t change the picture much.

That’s been GM, which might actually surprise a lot of people. So let’s get into why this has actually been the story in the US. Now, in aggregate, first and foremost, the US automotive manufacturers have done a lot better than their European peers. I’ve given you the top three that included BYD. If we look at Ford, it’s been the disappointment. Ford’s actually down around 8% which again is significantly better than the European peers that you just mentioned here, which were down in the solid double digits. Ford being the worst performer amongst the stocks that I looked at in North America. So -8% is framing your downside here versus +53% on GM.

As I indicated, that’s a fairly wide range. So what’s actually gone on at US automotive manufacturers?

I’m going to jump into Tesla because we know Tesla’s priced for – in fact, it’s priced beyond perfection. It’s not priced as an automotive manufacturer. And that’s why I want to start off there because when you compare Tesla to some of these other players, and I just looked at the revenue number, they came through on the last quarter just over $25 billion. That might sound small to you and that’s because it is. If we look at General Motors, coming through at $48.8 billion, around twice the size just in terms of its scale. That’s a revenue number, I get that. Ford also coming through around $46 billion. When you look at it on a revenue basis, Tesla’s not a material player in the overall space. We’ve got Ford, we’ve got GM, they sell internal combustion engine cars and then EVs starting to come through there. I just wanted to provide that context.

Tesla is growing reasonably well, 8% year on year increase in the last quarter. And importantly here, if you look at net income, that actually rose 17%. This explains why some of the positivity has come through in Tesla. It might not justify the valuation, but the underlying performance in the business has actually improved over the course of the last year.

They delivered just under half a million vehicles. That’s a 6% increase on a year-on-year basis. And when we look at margins, the important thing to note here, you referenced operating margins. Tesla’s operating margin is pretty decent. It just cracks into the double digits there. It’s around 11% and that compares favourably.

GM not doing too badly. 7.5% on operating margin. Ford, it’s understandable why they’ve done so badly. Their margin around 2.5%, so not a great look at Ford. Ford, remember, made substantial investments into the EV space. They had the F150 Lightning that was really well received in the market.

So if we pivot from this Tesla story – in fact, before I even do that, before I go into Ford, looking still at Tesla, decent story there. Free cash flow generation that’s come through as well, a massive 223% year-on-year increase. The market liking some of those numbers.

But Tesla generally trades on what Elon Musk tells you about the future. So what has he told us? We’ve had the launch of the Cybertruck. I had the luxury of going and actually kicking the tires of the Cybertruck and I must say I was not impressed. The build quality was very reminiscent of the early Teslas. It didn’t look impressive. And again, I can compare this to Ford, for example. The F150 Lightning just looked like a more polished product when I compared that to the Cybertruck. That said, it is remarkably popular despite the fact that it’s really quite ugly in my personal opinion. We’ve started to see deliveries of that in Canada, so it is quite popular.

The interesting thing here is that Tesla reduced the price of its Cybertruck models. They’ve got the all-wheel-drive version now starting around $80,000. And their Cyberbeast as they call it, very Elon Musk-esque name coming through at just under $100,000. That’s still very, very expensive.

If you compare that against what BYD is doing in China, the cheap EVs you’re getting out of China, it makes sense why the US is trying to levy these massive tariffs on Chinese imports, because without that, US automotive manufacturers from a pricing point perspective don’t look fantastic.

Now the last point on Tesla is that the Trump administration has started speaking about repealing the EV tax credits. That’s very much in contrast to what you’re seeing in South Africa where they’re looking at subsidies to try and get EV adoption going. In the US, they’re looking at dialling that back. Now why did I mention it under Tesla, is that it actually favours Tesla in my view vs. some of the other companies that are only starting to make forays in the EV space. Tesla is the incumbent and so it’s actually got a little bit of a moat. In terms of EV adoption, Tesla still the market leader there.

Now I’m going to move from that into a look at Ford as I indicated, for the underperformer in this space and I’ll leave GM for last because they’ve shot the lights out.

Ford coming through with a decent 5.5% year on year increase on the revenue side. I’ve already indicated how the margins were disappointing there and that’s really costing them. But the story with Ford has actually been a pullback on its production of the electric F150 Lightning. The reason for this is that they’ve actually seen declining demand for electric vehicles. This is very costly for Ford because a couple of quarters ago, they were throwing the kitchen sink at their EV lineup.

What we’ve seen over the course of the subsequent quarters is because of disappointing demand, maybe the prices are too high, maybe the models are not fancy enough because of that, we’ve actually seen them pull back on production. They’ve right sized some of the investment plans in that space and they’ve also now become a lot more practical.

I’ve mentioned the point around sharing infrastructure. Ford has actually announced that they will be collaborating with Tesla in terms of using Tesla’s supercharger network. Again, this is a little bit of a maturity in terms of saying, look, we’re not going to roll out our own independent infrastructure efficiently enough. This is a hurdle. So if we make our cars compatible with Tesla’s infrastructure, maybe that gives us a shot at actually being a decent EV player.

For me, the big concern here is that overall EV sales have actually slowed at Ford. We have actually seen them pull back in terms of some of their production plans. That’s costing Ford in aggregate in the EV space. And remember, the reason it’s costing them is because of the amount of money they threw at this.

Now let’s very quickly move from that into GM. And again, we’ve covered these stocks in Magic Markets Premium. The interesting thing that we flagged at GM a little while ago is that instead of doubling down on the EV investment, GM was actually the only automotive manufacturer other than Tesla, of course that seemed to be doubling down on the autonomous driving side of the business with their division called Cruise.

It still loses money. They narrowed that operating loss from around $800 million a year ago. It’s now $400 million in loss. This showing you the direction that GM wants to take. Why this is actually being construed as bullish in the US is that the emphasis of the incoming administration has now pivoted. Remember, Elon Musk is great friends with President Trump. Elon Musk is in the full self-drive camp. So it makes sense that they’re pivoting away from EV subsidies into a full self-drive. They’re going to try and ease regulation in that space that benefits not just Tesla, but that benefits General Motors as well.

Again, if we look at GM, a very strong 10% increase on the revenue side. Their margins are decent. With this EV lineup, they are making slow and steady progress there. They plan to produce 200,000 electric vehicles this year. It’s not the headline grabbing stuff that you saw at Ford. It’s not the headline grabbing stuff you’re seeing at Tesla. They’re going at the slow and steady, but that seems to make sense and that has actually delivered some of the financial results.

In aggregate, Ghost, I think the US automotive sector is going to benefit from this “Make America Great Again” theme. Trump wants to support the automotive sector of their economy. There are going to be winners and losers and that’s going to depend on what direction policy actually takes in the US. Like I say right now, Tesla in a fairly strong position, correctly or incorrectly so. Pay attention to GM. It’s rallied very strongly but that’s been the one that was the dark horse. Ironically, I think we called Ford a dark horse when they actually launched their Mach E. Actually, the dark horse turned out to be GM instead of Ford!

 

The Finance Ghost: Actually, Ford’s most exciting new model is also called a Dark Horse, which is their new Mustang, which looks absolutely fantastic. I’ve yet to see a bad comment on social media about it in terms of the price point it’s coming at. And I’m talking about the real deal now, the V8 Mustang, not the EV one, the old school one. It’s really, really good.

 

Mohammed Nalla: Ghost, that’s not what you have to mention on a show that’s looking at EVs. I mean, Ford’s Mustang is iconic, but it’s going to just gas guzzle. I mean, that’s not the EV that you want.

 

The Finance Ghost: It’s fine, there will be enough gas for it to guzzle. While people buy EVs, you see they’re saving fuel then for the Mustangs. Suits me. Go buy electric cars. Absolutely.

 

Mohammed Nalla: Because you mentioned BMW earlier and again, I omitted to mention this. I love BMW. I’m a BMW fan. I’ve had BMWs for the longest time. They actually, in my view, have the most exciting, most attractive EV lineup. I’ve looked at Mercedes Benz, I’ve looked at BMW. I currently drive probably the most efficient 3 series in its class. The current 3 series is very efficient, but it’s an internal combustion engine. I said that’s probably my last ICE car. If I were to consider an EV, I seriously would consider that BMW i4. It’s very attractive, it looks cool. My friend actually bought one for his son and it’s a great car. The build quality is there. If the Europeans can just get this right, their build quality is leap years ahead of where the US competitors come out. But this obviously assumes that we can’t get Chinese EVs into North America. If we could. BYD makes a very compelling case.

 

The Finance Ghost: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, for the last couple of minutes of the show, I would like to just touch on two of the Japanese names.

The first one, obviously Toyota, you would have guessed that. And the reason I’ve chosen the two names I have is that one at least has clear strategic positioning and the other one is nowhere.

Toyota has been pushing their hybrid story. They believe that’s where the future is. And for the first six months of their financial year, hybrid vehicle sales were up 22.6%. But total vehicle sales down 4%. Sales in Japan were actually the biggest issue, down 12.4%. Now, when we covered Toyota in Magic Markets Premium actually a while ago, we highlighted the exposure to that Japanese domestic market as one of the worries around that story when the share price had just run so hard.

Really now you can only laugh in the nicest way at the true Japanese style coming through in their commentary. It’s just so different to American culture, etc. They, I quote here, “apologise for causing inconvenience and concern” in the first half of the year. I just love that. Sorry for the inconvenience of these numbers, with our manufacturing issues in our Japanese market. Don’t worry, we’ll fix it in the second half. And they’re not holding back on forecasts. They firmly believe they will fix it. Their full year dividend forecast is expected to be 20% higher, be that as it may.

Then for contrast, and this is where I want to end off, is when a sector is struggling, you just cannot afford to invest in something that doesn’t have a proper strategic position. I’m afraid that is Mazda. What is Mazda’s strategic position at the moment? I can’t think of, honestly, anything. They don’t make anything interesting. A lot of their petrol engines are pretty outdated now. There’s nothing really electric coming through. They haven’t really pushed hybrid. It’s very, very bleh, honestly. It is. They are nowhere right now. And their numbers show that.

Operating income down 20.5%, net income down 67.3%. That’s despite sales revenue up 3.3%. What does that tell you? Margins have fallen through the floor. Sales incentives have had the biggest impact here, which is just a fancy way of Mazda saying, actually we’re struggling to sell cars, we need to mark them down because shock and horror, they’re not actually very interesting.

Why would you buy a Mazda instead of a Chinese car at this point? I can barely think of any reason at all. So that’s the issue. I think the point is that in the automotive sector you just do not want to be investing in a marginal player right now. It’s a tough way to make money in a normal year. It’s even harder if you’re going to be in a company where things are looking marginal and, you know, even where the likes of BMW do so well with their electric range, they are still struggling overall.

The whole sector right now, just a little bit of a bloodbath, certainly bar one or two interesting names and I think that’s the reality of where we are right now. And it’s because the technology is changing, it’s good for consumers. It’s not so great for the old school players in the market.

 

Mohammed Nalla: I fully agree with that, Ghost. I mean, automotive manufacturers are just a tough, tough industry and the numbers show you that. I mean, yes, I’ve been waxing lyrical about how well GM has done, but that’s because it did really, really badly before that. So it’s got a low base of which to grow. Mazda, that’s one that I didn’t even think of looking at. I mean, it’s really out of sight, out of mind. In fact, I’m looking at the chart and Mazda’s kind of tied as the worst performer along with Stellantis, which we’ve called the polony of the automotive world.

Mazda, I’ve owned a Mazda in the past. I had the Miata, the MX5. That’s an iconic kind of roadster. Really cool, was fun to drive.

 

The Finance Ghost: That is the cool Mazda!

 

Mohammed Nalla: That’s the one, the cool Mazda. No other reason to go and look at a Mazda. And even then, I mean, the MX5 was lovely to drive but terribly underpowered. So eventually I just had to let the thing go.

That being said, where do you go in this market? BYD is fantastic. Yes, I’ve seen their product lineup, I’ve been to their factory, it’s phenomenal. But I really do worry around these tariffs. Will they be able to get around the tariffs in the EU as well as in the US? That’s a big cloud over BYD.

And then Tesla, I’ve again waxed lyrical about how it was the number two position. But if you looked at Tesla earlier on this year, it was the chronic underperformer. It was actually the worst performer in the industry until we got the “Elon call option” starting to materialise very strongly. That’s catapulted it from effectively the worst performer if you looked in the first quarter to the second best performer as we’re standing as the year kind of closes out. Very interesting.

I think there are some structural shifts in the industry. I’m watching that full self-drive with a lot of interest because I’m lazy. I love driving, but I’m lazy. I’d love to sit in a car and let it drive me around. I’m sure there are lots of people in South Africa that are nervous about that. Let’s maybe get the full self-drive for the taxi drivers. I could see that as an improvement.

But it’s a fascinating industry, not one that I’m chomping at the bit to actually invest in, but it’s one that we’re going to watch with a lot of interest and once the dust settles, like I say, there are other trends, other themes you can play here. I think the infrastructure theme is a strong one and Tesla is an incumbent. They are a beneficiary of everyone trying to share that Tesla infrastructure. Love it or hate it, they’ve made significant waves in that space. Certainly doesn’t justify the valuation.

 

The Finance Ghost: Moe, what I will be watching is how those Mustang Dark Horses with their Coyote V8s and 334kW fly out of the showroom. Because when I was at Le Mans earlier this year, those Mustangs on the track were magnificent. It was the best sounding race car, certainly one of the top sounding race cars and that is among seriously esteemed competitors.

I think when these automotive manufacturers do remember where their core is and they at least have some of that, they can still do well. And maybe that’s where something like Mazda has just completely lost the plot. At least with Ford you can still see some of the strategy coming through. So yeah, let’s see what happens. It’s an exciting space.

 

Mohammed Nalla: Mustang is an icon. I absolutely love the Mustang. The Mach-E. I was so excited about the Mach-E, but it’s got range issues. If they can actually create an electric version of the iconic Mustang. I know you’re going to hate this, Ghost, I know you’re going to hate it, but they’ve got to obviously install some speakers to make it sound really cool to you. I would consider that.

 

The Finance Ghost: You know that you’re going to tell your friends’ kids that you bought a Mustang, they’re going to be like, oh, Moe, that’s amazing, can you rev it? And at that point you will have buyer regret of note. And I will laugh. That’s the point at which I will laugh.

 

Mohammed Nalla: Ghost. I’ve been looking at Ford as a stock because that dividend yield looks so appealing to me and I was sorely tempted around $10. I haven’t gotten in because I looked at the industry and I said, really poor industry economics. That’s where I land on the sector as a whole.

But unfortunately that’s where we’ve got to leave it this week. Let us know what you think about the show. Hit us up on social media. It’s @magicmarketspod, @financeghost, @mohammednalla all on X, or go and find us on LinkedIn. Pop us a note on there. We hope you’ve enjoyed this. Remember to check out that Investec podcast as well. Really interesting things coming through there. Until next week, same time, same place. Thanks and Cheers.

 

The Finance Ghost: Ciao.

 

This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not financial or investment advice. Please speak to your personal financial advisor.